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#52587: "Suggest faction drafting variant"
#52587: "Suggest faction drafting variant"
What is this report about?
What happened? Please select from below
Suggestion: in my opinion, the following would greatly improve the game implementation
What happened? Please select from below
Suggestion: in my opinion, the following would greatly improve the game implementation
Please check if there is already a report on the same subject
If yes, please VOTE for this report. Reports with the most votes are given PRIORITY!
| # | Status | Votes | Game | Type | Title | Last update |
|---|
Detailed description
• Please copy/paste the error message you see on your screen, if applicable.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Please explain what you wanted to do, what you did and what happened
• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• Please copy/paste the text displayed in English instead of your language. If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use Imgur.com to upload it and copy/paste the link here.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Is this text available in the translation system? If yes, has it been translated for more than 24 hours?
• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• Please explain your suggestion precisely and concisely so that it's as easy as possible to understand what you mean.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• What was displayed on the screen when you were blocked (Blank screen? Part of the game interface? Error message?)
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• Which part of the rules was not followed by the BGA adaptation?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Is the rules violation visible on game replay? If yes, at which move number?
• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• What was the game action you wanted to do?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• What did you try to do to trigger this game action?
• What happened when you tried to do this (error message, game status bar message, ...)?
• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• At which step of the game did the problem occur? What was the current game instruction?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• What happened when you tried to do this game action (error message, game status bar message, ...)?
• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• Please describe the display issue. If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use Imgur.com to upload it and copy/paste the link here.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• Please copy/paste the text displayed in English instead of your language. If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use Imgur.com to upload it and copy/paste the link here.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Is this text available in the translation system? If yes, has it been translated for more than 24 hours?
• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
• Please explain your suggestion precisely and concisely so that it's as easy as possible to understand what you mean.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• Which browser are you using?
Mozilla v5
Report history
Nov 10th 2021 18:36 • mctwo • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Thank you for your work so far. This is a game that needs repeat play to truly appreciate and online is the best way to achieve that, especially in a pandemic!
Nov 10th 2021 18:49 • Kayvon • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Thanks for the thoughtfully-worded suggestion. We're going to keep this open to both gauge interest and see if someone wants to take the bounty on adding it to the implementation someday.
For the near-term, our primary focus is on implementing the official rules. We know faction drafting is a fan-favorite unofficial variant, but it's not as easy as copy-pasting code from another project. (It's actually easier to design it from scratch, believe it or not.) With limited time and resources, we sometimes need to be picky about what we can work on.
For the near-term, our primary focus is on implementing the official rules. We know faction drafting is a fan-favorite unofficial variant, but it's not as easy as copy-pasting code from another project. (It's actually easier to design it from scratch, believe it or not.) With limited time and resources, we sometimes need to be picky about what we can work on.
Nov 10th 2021 19:00 • Mogri • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
This has definitely been a popular suggestion, though you're the first one to submit it formally. I appreciate the desire for the auction, especially as that's the de facto standard for competitive Terra Mystica play. To further explain some of our considerations:
At this time, the auction variant is not publisher-approved. Terra Mystica introduced faction bidding with the Fire & Ice expansion; the Gaia Project rules (published well after Fire & Ice) do not suggest faction bidding. I can only speculate as to the reasoning there, but the publisher-endorsed balancing mechanism for Gaia Project is tile rotation, not faction bidding.
But a larger problem is that faction bidding in Gaia Project has several ill-defined behaviors relative to Terra Mystica:
- Presumably, you build the map and then bid on factions; after all, you know what the map looks like before bidding in TM.
- Does the last player still get to rotate the tiles? If so, does that happen before or after the auction?
- If it happens before the auction, how do you mitigate the starting player advantage?
You could make some informed guesses here, and certainly as a more competitive player, you'd be better qualified to do so than I would, but I would be uncomfortable proceeding with one player's interpretation of the unofficial variant, no matter how qualified that one player may be.
I suspect the community will align on a set of faction bidding rules for Gaia Project on BGA -- after all, Terra Mystica's BGA implementation is not exactly as stated in the Fire & Ice rules -- and that faction bidding will eventually be added. For this reason, I'm happy to leave this suggestion open: I expect it to eventually be integrated. But for the immediate future, we won't be adding it.
At this time, the auction variant is not publisher-approved. Terra Mystica introduced faction bidding with the Fire & Ice expansion; the Gaia Project rules (published well after Fire & Ice) do not suggest faction bidding. I can only speculate as to the reasoning there, but the publisher-endorsed balancing mechanism for Gaia Project is tile rotation, not faction bidding.
But a larger problem is that faction bidding in Gaia Project has several ill-defined behaviors relative to Terra Mystica:
- Presumably, you build the map and then bid on factions; after all, you know what the map looks like before bidding in TM.
- Does the last player still get to rotate the tiles? If so, does that happen before or after the auction?
- If it happens before the auction, how do you mitigate the starting player advantage?
You could make some informed guesses here, and certainly as a more competitive player, you'd be better qualified to do so than I would, but I would be uncomfortable proceeding with one player's interpretation of the unofficial variant, no matter how qualified that one player may be.
I suspect the community will align on a set of faction bidding rules for Gaia Project on BGA -- after all, Terra Mystica's BGA implementation is not exactly as stated in the Fire & Ice rules -- and that faction bidding will eventually be added. For this reason, I'm happy to leave this suggestion open: I expect it to eventually be integrated. But for the immediate future, we won't be adding it.
Nov 14th 2021 20:33 • flower2886 • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
I personally think the order could be
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding
One thing to add is that a map generation should be added that has a basic fair setup.
1. No planets of the same color at distance 2
2. No clusters of planets > 3
That would be a good basis for a somewhat fair map. There was a Gaia setup website that actually generated pretty good maps but it seems to be defunct now. I believe in addition to the 2 things above it looked at the overall distribution of planets and counted outer hex tiles vs inner hex tiles planet colors.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding
One thing to add is that a map generation should be added that has a basic fair setup.
1. No planets of the same color at distance 2
2. No clusters of planets > 3
That would be a good basis for a somewhat fair map. There was a Gaia setup website that actually generated pretty good maps but it seems to be defunct now. I believe in addition to the 2 things above it looked at the overall distribution of planets and counted outer hex tiles vs inner hex tiles planet colors.
Nov 15th 2021 15:27 • Kayvon • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
> One thing to add is that a map generation should be added
Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
Nov 17th 2021 20:22 • mctwo • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
I think the suggestion of auction sequence by flower2886 is good:
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
The last player would still rotate the tiles, which could make for a more or less balanced game, but even if there ended up inevitably strong and weak races in the game after rotation, the bidding would help even it out with point handicaps. The last player would still be motivated to not make a minority of races super super strong, as in theory players ahead of them in turn order could bid all their VP to avoid ending up with the terrible dud. I am not an expert in TM or the auction process, but I have played many dozens of games of GP here and am convinced that something like it is necessary if you want to have organized competitive play. I will still enjoy it whether or not it happens.
Thank you again for all of your hard work bringing GP to the site.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
The last player would still rotate the tiles, which could make for a more or less balanced game, but even if there ended up inevitably strong and weak races in the game after rotation, the bidding would help even it out with point handicaps. The last player would still be motivated to not make a minority of races super super strong, as in theory players ahead of them in turn order could bid all their VP to avoid ending up with the terrible dud. I am not an expert in TM or the auction process, but I have played many dozens of games of GP here and am convinced that something like it is necessary if you want to have organized competitive play. I will still enjoy it whether or not it happens.
Thank you again for all of your hard work bringing GP to the site.
Nov 18th 2021 13:01 • flower2886 • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
>> One thing to add is that a map generation should be added
>Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've >added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
I will try it out. Would you mind sharing what the map generation algorithm tries to consider at the moment to build a fair map?
>Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've >added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
I will try it out. Would you mind sharing what the map generation algorithm tries to consider at the moment to build a fair map?
Nov 18th 2021 15:34 • Kayvon • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Without going into too much boring detail, the map generation looks over every color and tries to balance the fairness between them. It doesn't care if they're all advantaged or all disadvantaged, as long as they're equal.
It looks at every planet of every color and considers the following, with different scoring factors for each:
1) Distance to a gaia planet
2) Distance to a transdim planet
3) Distance to all other planets and how much terraforming would be required
4) Being on the edge of the map subtracts from the score somewhat
Additionally, the algorithm considers other constraints aside from score, like ensuring that a planet cluster contains no more than 4 planets.
It looks at every planet of every color and considers the following, with different scoring factors for each:
1) Distance to a gaia planet
2) Distance to a transdim planet
3) Distance to all other planets and how much terraforming would be required
4) Being on the edge of the map subtracts from the score somewhat
Additionally, the algorithm considers other constraints aside from score, like ensuring that a planet cluster contains no more than 4 planets.
Nov 21st 2021 17:13 • Babbuc49 • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
I’m not at all a fan of auction in GP cause most of the time it doesn’t change the results and adds 30 minutes to the game but I agree it should be added as a feature since a large part of the competitive players do like it. Also I don’t get why not implementing it because it’s not written officially in the rulebook is an argument when generating completely new tiles that don’t exist in the original game is considered to be ok as a feature to add. Finally I’d have a lot to say about the random map generation but I’ll make it short saying that it doesn’t improve balance at all. Rotation is still needed, you can’t automatically balance colours because different factions (including different sides of the same colour) look for completely different features in the map, also focusing the balancing on distancing the planets is strongly biased towards nav strats while in 4th place rotation one might want to create some nice clusters to make no nav strats more viable and balance out the tech track competition. But that is just a small example out of a much larger argument.
Nov 21st 2021 17:50 • Mogri • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Please don't play with optional features you dislike.
Nov 29th 2021 16:00 • mOCHU035 • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
I would second the proposal from flower2886 as well.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
Dec 11th 2021 14:17 • WhiteLionEXP • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Im not even expecting this matter to be resolved anytime soon, but i figured i might aswell add the auction method our group used live for 50+ games and it felt very natural and balanced. Some minor tweaks suited for online environment :
- Build Map
- Randomly choose a player who gets to rotate tiles (OR always make highest elo ranked player rotate the tiles)
- Randomly choose order in which players will do the bidding. (OR choose order based on elo rating - Players ranked from lowest will bid first. Lower ranked players should have right to choose more since they on average play worse)
- Players bid VPs for order/position in which they pick races which is also the order/position they play first round.
- Pick races in determined order based on results of auction.
There can be two types of auctions, probably setup a poll or something :
1) Simultaneous VP bids - players choose how much VPs they bid, click confirm and results will be determined at once after reveal. (There can be nuance whether to make last player lose VPs or not but to be discussed)
or
2) (the one we used, although it adds playing time)
- Choose how much VP you bid on which position (say you start the auction so you bid 2vp for 1st. [Bidding 0vp for any position is also valid])
- Next player can either bid more for same position or relinquish that position and bid for lower position
- Players can never bid VPs for higher positions after they bid for lower (once u bid any VP for 2nd, you cant bid for 1st after)
(Case might occur where one player bid for 2nd and 3 players fight for 1st whole orbit, in that case that player just waits since there is nothing to bid for)
- Build Map
- Randomly choose a player who gets to rotate tiles (OR always make highest elo ranked player rotate the tiles)
- Randomly choose order in which players will do the bidding. (OR choose order based on elo rating - Players ranked from lowest will bid first. Lower ranked players should have right to choose more since they on average play worse)
- Players bid VPs for order/position in which they pick races which is also the order/position they play first round.
- Pick races in determined order based on results of auction.
There can be two types of auctions, probably setup a poll or something :
1) Simultaneous VP bids - players choose how much VPs they bid, click confirm and results will be determined at once after reveal. (There can be nuance whether to make last player lose VPs or not but to be discussed)
or
2) (the one we used, although it adds playing time)
- Choose how much VP you bid on which position (say you start the auction so you bid 2vp for 1st. [Bidding 0vp for any position is also valid])
- Next player can either bid more for same position or relinquish that position and bid for lower position
- Players can never bid VPs for higher positions after they bid for lower (once u bid any VP for 2nd, you cant bid for 1st after)
(Case might occur where one player bid for 2nd and 3 players fight for 1st whole orbit, in that case that player just waits since there is nothing to bid for)
Dec 11th 2021 16:54 • Kayvon • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Those are some fun ideas. The game engine has no access to Elo rating, so it would have to be random.
If I were to implement something of my own choosing, it would probably be this:
1) The random map generator creates a new map. No rotation. (We're already in unofficial territory here, so why not speed up creation somewhat.)
2) The last (or first?) player without a faction picks a faction that he wants
3) Everyone bids a number of VP they're willing to pay to get this faction. Probably blind bids to make it faster.
4) The highest bidder gets the faction, with ties broken by the person proposing the faction. (i.e. If you choose a faction no one wants, you'll get it for your 0 VP bid.)
5) Go back to step 2, including only players without factions. Repeat until everyone has a faction.
For a four player game, this has no rotations and three blind bids, with some extra strategic options vs. bidding before knowing any of the factions involved.
If I were to implement something of my own choosing, it would probably be this:
1) The random map generator creates a new map. No rotation. (We're already in unofficial territory here, so why not speed up creation somewhat.)
2) The last (or first?) player without a faction picks a faction that he wants
3) Everyone bids a number of VP they're willing to pay to get this faction. Probably blind bids to make it faster.
4) The highest bidder gets the faction, with ties broken by the person proposing the faction. (i.e. If you choose a faction no one wants, you'll get it for your 0 VP bid.)
5) Go back to step 2, including only players without factions. Repeat until everyone has a faction.
For a four player game, this has no rotations and three blind bids, with some extra strategic options vs. bidding before knowing any of the factions involved.
Dec 26th 2021 12:00 • Songo • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
I've read the proposals but why not just keep it simple and stick with F&I? There you also have a few possible maps and setups. Bidding takes care of making it fair.
By making sure races are picked before the auction it also means it won't always be the generally strongest factions seeing play
Generate map at random/algorithm/whatever, no rotation to save time (choosing this could be
Random 1st player chooses a race to be first, next player picks second, etc
Then it's simultaneous bid on the "initial order + race" combo
By making sure races are picked before the auction it also means it won't always be the generally strongest factions seeing play
Generate map at random/algorithm/whatever, no rotation to save time (choosing this could be
Random 1st player chooses a race to be first, next player picks second, etc
Then it's simultaneous bid on the "initial order + race" combo
Jan 2nd 2022 15:01 • Babbuc49 • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
I'd suggest just looking at the auction system in the digidiced app, that's the best and fastest i've tried so far
Jan 5th 2022 13:56 • Windpainting • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
gaia project is very unbalance game without bidding
Jan 13th 2022 16:31 • Paagalpan • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
This problem is very apparent in 2p games where the player who goes first always picks Ivits who are overpowered in this setup. A bidding structure would massively help.
Jan 18th 2022 4:02 • Zarker • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
In a 3 or 4 player game, if the last player is a beginner, it's too often to create a very unfair map. In such a case, the game is divided according to the order.
Jan 18th 2022 4:03 • Zarker • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Using random maps does not solve this problem at all. Random maps are mostly very unfair.
Feb 1st 2022 13:56 • dingostar • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Hello,
I do agree that faction bidding is mandatory for competitive play.
But I don't agree with the fact that map generation algorithm should be adapted by exemple to avoid cluster of > x planets.
The reason is : if faction auction is available, it will be there also to balance those map that may look like "unbalance".
Thanks for the implementation anyway.
I do agree that faction bidding is mandatory for competitive play.
But I don't agree with the fact that map generation algorithm should be adapted by exemple to avoid cluster of > x planets.
The reason is : if faction auction is available, it will be there also to balance those map that may look like "unbalance".
Thanks for the implementation anyway.
Feb 15th 2022 18:25 • Kayvon • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Report short description
"Need auction for drafting initial factions as per Terra Mystica"
changed to
"Suggest faction drafting variant"
"Need auction for drafting initial factions as per Terra Mystica"
changed to
"Suggest faction drafting variant"
Apr 20th 2022 21:06 • mctwo • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
Any update on this? After 100+ additional games, I am more convinced than ever this is needed for competitive play. Can anything be done to help move this along? Thanks for your great work!
Apr 20th 2022 22:13 • Kayvon • This suggestion has not been analyzed by the developers yet:
While this is something we have our eye on doing, it is not a high priority for a number of reasons.
1) The feature will take many hours to complete
2) The feature is entirely volunteer work and we have families and competing responsibilities (see #1)
3) Following discussions on BGA and other sites regarding this, it's clear that no matter which approach we take to a draft a very vocal subset of players will be unhappy. (For a mild example of this, just scroll up to my previous post right here.)
This is something I'm still working on in my free time, but I make no promises as to whether it will ever be deployed. The vocal negative reactions towards optional work I've done previously (random maps, anyone?) makes me reluctant to volunteer myself for further abuse (see #3), so this isn't a high priority.
On a positive note, Gaia Project is an excellent game that has been embraced by the community at large using the publisher-provided ruleset.
1) The feature will take many hours to complete
2) The feature is entirely volunteer work and we have families and competing responsibilities (see #1)
3) Following discussions on BGA and other sites regarding this, it's clear that no matter which approach we take to a draft a very vocal subset of players will be unhappy. (For a mild example of this, just scroll up to my previous post right here.)
This is something I'm still working on in my free time, but I make no promises as to whether it will ever be deployed. The vocal negative reactions towards optional work I've done previously (random maps, anyone?) makes me reluctant to volunteer myself for further abuse (see #3), so this isn't a high priority.
On a positive note, Gaia Project is an excellent game that has been embraced by the community at large using the publisher-provided ruleset.
Jul 2nd 2022 18:01 • Kayvon • This suggestion has been implemented:
Happy Saturday morning. We've completed the implementation of new features that include banning, drafting, and auctions. We've also been in touch with the publisher to receive approval of these optional features.
Months of planning and volunteer hours have gone into making these a top-notch experience. Having said that, we also recognize that no single solution will please everyone. Fortunately, these optional experiences don't replace the core game experience. If you discover this particular implementation isn't for you, we would invite you to continue to enjoy the existing experience supported by the official ruleset.
Enjoy the new features! I look forward to seeing more varied factions in upcoming games!
Months of planning and volunteer hours have gone into making these a top-notch experience. Having said that, we also recognize that no single solution will please everyone. Fortunately, these optional experiences don't replace the core game experience. If you discover this particular implementation isn't for you, we would invite you to continue to enjoy the existing experience supported by the official ruleset.
Enjoy the new features! I look forward to seeing more varied factions in upcoming games!
Jul 5th 2022 18:47 • tap_d • This suggestion has been implemented:
Is there a description somewhere of how the auction works? I’m really confused as to how the bids are calculated.
Jul 5th 2022 19:17 • Mogri • This suggestion has been implemented:
Check the end of the "How to Play" section for a description.
Add to this report
Please add here anything that seems relevant in order to reproduce this bug or understand your suggestion:
- Another table ID / move ID
- Did F5 solve the problem?
- Did the problem appear several times? Every time? Randomly?
- If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use Imgur.com to upload it and copy/paste the link here.
Change report status to:
bug?id=52587
